Welcome everybody to the very first seminar of the first event that the dissenter is supporting this center came about in a very unusual way. We had one of our trustees, Peter Brieger, who's someone involved in the digital currency and Bitcoin ecosystem, who was constantly asked to give talks at other universities. And so he went to increase eyes convert better to be your trustees. You can go right to the top and say how can, for instance, isn't doing anything along these lines. And so Chris, who's a constitutional lawyer, said, Well, maybe you should talk to the database engineering and see if this makes any sense to do within the School of Engineering. So they came to me and I said this is really exciting. Of course, cryptocurrency in Bitcoin and digital currency and blockchain are somewhat controversial. There's concerns about whether this is going to bring economies to their knees. And then there's a huge amount of excitement about it. It's been adopted as the currency of countries. So in addition to the technical aspects of blockchain and using it for different applications, there's policy questions, there's political questions, there's social questions, There's ethics questions. And that's what to me was so excited about having Princeton, which has this incredible collaborative environment, has an amazing policy school, has an amazing set of faculty across all disciplines in the humanities, social sciences, the arts, and engineering and science. If we could bring that brain power of our faculty and our students together to really figure out what are the deep questions to ask. The technical question is how do we develop blockchain, the ethical policy, social questions of the applications and how we might use them to improve humanity, which is the formal Mano prints. And I thought why not do that at Princeton? That would be so exciting. I went back to Chris. I said, let's do this. Peter brought in three other founding donors for a total of $20 million. That's the money that we have in the dissenter to really support these foundational activities that we're doing. So this is the first of a seminar series that we're starting up. I'm going to turn it over to JP Sing, who is our fearless leader, my co-director, but really the thought leader and leader in general behind all the things that we've developed so far in the de-center, It's a super exciting activity. We have a big kickoff event. At the end of November. We're going to have another large conference in the spring as well as the seminar series. We're looking also at doing things like hackathons, student projects. So I'm delighted to see so many students here starting in the middle of COVID as a new dean, I really haven't met as many students as I like to say. Anytime I see students, it's like I'm overjoyed. So happy to see you all here. Please get involved. Please give us ideas on how we can make the descender more impactful in this really exciting area of technology. That could be the next big disruptions or technology and applications. And with that, I'll turn it over to JP. Thank you. Thanks a lot. So obviously they made me do it. That's the story. Okay, So I'm just gonna go through a few slides to talk about the big center is a sort of elaborate, perhaps a little bit because you go quickly then I want to develop the time to our wonderful illustrious panel. We're going to talk with you today. Thank you very much everyone for being here. Students, especially students or the power behind everything. So love having more students involved. So, alright, so that's the de-center. The goal is really a sort of Andrea said that these new technologies blockchain in particular, that are really oriented toward they do something new. They are oriented toward the decentralization of trust, having trust among mutually miss thrusting entities without all right? So this decentralization of trust has the potential to enable decentralization of power. And that's an exciting potential aspect here. And if we can do that, if there is decentralization of power in society, then that creates the opportunity to re-imagine many types of financial, business and societal liquid. That's the opportunity for new kind of approach and has tremendous opportunity, but they have significant risks. And so there are important policy considerations to be very careful about insects and foundations. And so I hope it's the principle, being a boss and impact leader in this highly interdisciplinary area. Teeth, but really it's very highly successful. I'm helping set the proper foundations across these different areas. That's, that's the overall goal. So what do I mean by the centralization of power? Well, the typical solution for cross, if a bunch of us on trust one another, we have to transact or interact with one another, is to have some centralized MCU middle. That could be a government, that could be a company, that could be a central bank, commercial bank or something like that, right? And so these centralized entities have a mass tremendous power. Horrifying. Easy example, but you look at the big tech companies, but if they have tremendous power over us. And trust in these big centralized entity with dementia. And governments and large companies, lots of often cetera. So there are many, many ways in which the people who use the centralized power to influencing companies influence our behavior. Government's control the value of our money and influence its distribution. More of an issue in some countries and others today. And really takes control from people. Limits creativity in some ways increases polarization in society as they're seeing tends to cement and build upon the status quo. So can we change this can be used these technologies to impact this. So the Bitcoin blockchain, the original, was brilliant piece of work that was designed to enable costs about centralization, right? In the context of the money. But really what it does is it tries to enable trust, but I'll centralization gives you permission less. Participation, censorship, previous security and durability, etc. But Bitcoin is limited by its design to really be about money and doesn't allow you to build these smart contracts and applications, namely other platforms like its area. And then others came up as platforms for applications. And they make different trade-offs between decentralization and functionality and performance and other efforts to build bitcoin layers to make even marching to the more decentralized platform for applications to. So that's sort of what's going on, but these things are enabled applications in many new areas, financial applications, including access for the unbanked, peer to peer review, ownership of your money and peer-to-peer transfer. Basic income initiatives. There are business applications, there are societal applications like owning your own identity rather than Facebook or Google. Owning your identity, owning your own data. Management of authenticity, getting more word deep fakes and things like that, and control of your data. Then there are some just foundational applications like digital assets, the provenance, establishing the prevalence of assets, integrity, immutable data stores and things like that. So lots of opportunities, but also a number of risks. So we think of this as three so deeply interacting areas. Applications that drive the technology, the technology itself, and the societal implications and policy implications. So applications, our goal overall is to sort of understand the applications that will have the greatest impact. By using this principle of decentralization. Understanding the implications for what they mean, for what we should really work on the technology side, what are the applications need, and the protocols and the various incentive engineering mechanisms. And really the way to do this is two, and deploy a real applications. Not, this is not an ivory tower. Deploy real applications, learn from them, iterate the technology. There are many things that still needs to be done, understanding fundamental limits and centered design speed and scale. It's really a full-stack research across computer science, economics, etc. To really do this, do this wherever and at scale. Then there are the societal implications. Policy and economic implications are risks. What regulation, what kind of policies need to be? What are the implications for society? How does this differentially impact different groups in society, right? And so those kind of things need to be, need to be well understood. And I think the magic to us sort of lies boundary of these disciplines, but also in breakthroughs within the disciplines, but really at the boundary and across the boundaries. So that's our belief and that's the approach we're trying to take what the de-center. Why Princeton by now Andrea mentioned we have all the ingredients to make this happen. A collaborative environment, interdisciplinary focus, many centers that are, that are in adjacent areas. And y now, we think the moment is, now, academia shouldn't miss this area given the importance of it and the opportunity and the potential risks that needs to be set up, right? Otherwise bad things can happen. There's an early stage. So the Wild West nature that really need scholarship and taught leadership and then the patients understanding and the foundations across these areas. You need to understand the technology to develop policy, etc, etc. And so the interplay and the foundations of this interplay must be laid very carefully. And universities so far haven't really met in this area. So there's a tremendous whitespace for Princeton to take leadership. And so our key components are taught leadership, building a vibrant community of ideas, developers, researchers, etc, connected to the external ecosystem. That's very important when we bring people here too and be sort of a place where people gather, hopefully publish scholarly analyses and white papers or some other more important things. As you might imagine, an area like this, money is involved and there's a lot of bias and what people say. And so we're trying to be unbiased and neutral and provide new information. A focus on the integrated building, deploying and research. So really building real things. They're gonna hire software engineers that shared resources for projects to really build things that can be deployed in the real world. But our partnerships with external entities and incubators to take ideas and bring them out into the real-world and get over what Andrea calls the valley of death for academic startup efforts. And some will partner with entities that are in different ecosystems. And so really focus on making it real and working with a startup and open source. And then there's a lot of need for education is unbiased education. I won't go into all these areas. But we'll do some of the things that one would do in order to really develop great materials in this area that are unbiased and then do the dissemination of the training of students, etc, in these areas. So overall, the goal is to establish Princeton as a university leader in this area, to this thought leadership, to building real things, developing projects and startups that have tremendous impact on the world and applications and achieved escape velocity. And then to the education and training of the future leaders in this area, the next generation. That's the goal. If anybody has a question or two to take them and then we'll move on to our panel. But that's what the de-center is all about. Any questions? Okay. Pam says No questions and your droning on and on for too long. Thank you, Pam. Okay. So we're gonna move to our panel of illustrious faculty from different areas. And I'm going to ask them to come up to this beautiful church we have laid out for them. So the way we'll do this, me talking, I'm going to ask each panelist to just say a few words first, take a couple more minutes and you have to do like five things in 3 min. And you have to remember all your background, how you got interested in this space. Why are so expired excited about the Di Santo and this whole area? How you first got interested, right. If I reflect twice. Anything else you'd like to say before we get into the actual panel? So maybe we start with Andres. Sure. Hi, my name is undressed membrane and this professor here is my second year at Princeton. The area of research that I focused on his human computer interaction. More specifically, the area that I work on his social computing, which is really thinking about the study and design of technologies that engage many people to come together and collaborate and connect. Which brings me to why I find this space interesting for many years. Before coming to parents Anatolia was dangerous in different research labs, in Microsoft Research, Snapchat and other places. Thinking and building technologies that bring people together and enable new forms of interaction. And so when I first learned about all these developments around crypto unrelated projects, I find that really interesting new space to explore new forms of connections and new forms of collaboration. I must admit that I've been very skeptical about this space for many years as probably many of you have. And that's also why I'm interested in this, because I want to learn more about what are some of the challenges in this space? What are some of the opportunities here? There's a lot of opportunities here. One specific project that I will mention that connects disease for the past few years have been really interested in the development of public interests, technology platforms. And so if you think about the existing platforms like Facebook, Google, Uber, and others are all centralized. We've been working with local organizations in considering alternatives to this, specifically in the space of gig work. So what will a Uber owned by drivers may look like or what a DoorDash or by restaurants may look like. We're actually building some of these things now specifically using any crypto technologies yet, but really thinking of decentralized forms of building this infrastructure. So that's why I find this space really interesting and compelling and very close to what I've been doing research on. Great. Thank you. Yeah. So hello from my side. My name is minneapolis the likey I'm an assistant professor here. It's my second month. So I'm bringing my research about the areas of security networks and blockchain. The reason why I got interested in locked in some particular was because I feel that they are actually very much like they're very much Daddy on one layer, but not cross layers. Basically, this creates a real vulnerability and widths reliability that actually today's attacker really leverage and exploring. This is how I got into it. I like networks. I also had learned at the time about Bitcoin and this environment. Like I started being excited about both and I need book, not in that sense of fantasy story with respect to the center, what I'm particularly excited about is the fact that indeed there are a lot of people that are skeptical about the technology. And I actually feel that this is a very important fact because this allows us to have better discussions about where we're going and why. And not just like using blockchain as something that we throw on different problems just for fun or just because we want papers, right? So I feel that these interdisciplinary component of the centuries is really fascinating. So for my site, high unknown McCartney, this is my 22nd year, so I'm not at all odds and to make pattern, I'm a political economist, I'm appointed and it's b-a and the Department of Politics. I come at this from an administrative perspective and an intellectual perspective. The administrative perspective is that I have two other hats that I wear. I'm the Vice Dean of strategic initiatives and SPIA. And so enhancing the connections between technology sees data as a strategic initiative. So we welcome the opportunity to work with Cs on projects like the central. I'm also the director of the center or actually the initiative for data-driven social science. So there's obvious connections between job and guess. From an intellectual perspective. I've long been interested in the ways in which big, major economic and technological changes of fact, the politics of the United States. I've written about how economic transformations or rise of Finance have transformed politics. I've also done a little bit of work on tech platforms and their political roles. This seems like a natural extension. Let me confess at the outset, I know less about the topic of blockchain than probably anyone else in this room. But it's been very interesting to dive in. Come up with some preliminary reactions. You can go to Nolan's code repository on GitHub anytime. Promote. My name is promoters for not neutral Princeton as well. But starting to research, I've been interested, i'm of lumber. I've been building the infrastructure for the information age since my PhD days and during the dot-com time. So that was my 1.0 and I've been part of that 2.0 somewhere around 2016. I think they even not summer of 2016, I had a grad student, was very interested in building decentralized technologies, especially wireless. But what I want, I did a lot and things that you cannot triangulate where you are and where you're sending it from Hong Kong protests and other protests. And so she was very driven by this and I see many of my students, so he would shout out, thanks for coming. Here. Students also drive professor's research. So you may think that professors teach students British, waiting for another. We're on to the answer. We worked on building messaging apps that can trace back who was sending it like physically case back while we're presenting it and we built this, didn't take off Snapchat than ours messaging app did not take off. That's called wildfires and the Valley of Death. But then I think whiles, while I'm talking about wildfire around codon Francis and someone mentioned to us, so do you know what Bitcoin and I never heard about it, but we hadn't thought about it from an decentralisation power and tool and it's currencies. I don't have any economics, So I not paid attention to it. And we got into this and we read it, the networking stack of Bitcoin and dandelion, how to make it anonymous, not be able to trace back IP addresses with Mallat addresses. And I guess my students that I know she's a professor at Carnegie Mellon. So we all had our own carriers. But I've never looked back since 2016, have been in blockchains. I don't most data clumping level trying to understand the what are the basic building blocks that you would need for the de-centralized Internet underlying pipes that interconnect. And as Maria was pointing out, it's substantially more connections. It also has aspects of economics because it's a token driven, incentive mechanism driven infrastructure. So enjoy being a Blumberg. Thank you very much for the introduction. So one quick question. Everyone has a couple of people mentioned skepticism. So let's take a quick poll. If you, I'm sure everyone's somewhat skeptical, but you have to say, I'm excited about this area. I'm skeptical scenario. What would you say? How many would say exciting. Okay. And how many would say skeptical? Okay. No, this is great because I think the skepticism is very important. I think we really need to look at all aspects of this. Deals with the foundations and the real reason for skepticism in various areas. Okay, let's get to some, let's try to step back from your own backgrounds and research interests and how you've gotten the area to more broadly for the dissenter and for society. And those, I'll ask each of you some questions about what doesn't open it up to the audience. So as they're doing this, please think of questions and it might not boring. You can prompt them and say, this is a better question because we've had application areas that have had traction or decentralized finance. And if T's identity to some degree, gaming, decentralized social networking type things. You took a step and governance and tau, if you said, particular areas of application that you think are most important to pursue this decentralisation crosswalk, what will come to your mind? I think Dallas to me will be the most interesting and perhaps fundamental thing. This, from a perspective of how this is going to impact society. I feel like the idea of creating communities and codifying how these components interact with each other. The code is something that people in my field have been trying to do for many years and I feel that downside exactly that. Now one of the challenges that I see with Dallas today is that they cannot presume that humans can talk together and agree on what rules are, and those rules will not change. There's ways of fixing that without you can have proxies and stuff like that. But I feel like that's one of the questions that I can put me on the skeptical side sometimes. But they're also makes me excited about the idea of bringing people together and codifying these rules. In this way, I feel like the other piece that I feel are particularly interesting is they raise capital for any organization when they need capital. We have a lot of structures that are already in place from going public if you're a company to using a Kickstarter, if you are like an early-stage organization. But all of them depend on the financial system as it is today. And that's financial system as it is today already has a lot of entrenched organizations and structures of power that are very complicated to circumvent. And I feel like one of the cool things about this is that it can circumvent some of those things and enable a broader range of people to engage in organizing and coming together. That said, another thing that I'm worried about is that if they are successful, they could be successful for both goods, like, let's say a set of local neighborhood coming together and building a handout to help the neighborhood it goes will be used for things that maybe were not excited about, like maybe a terrorist organization creating a dao. They could raise funds, circumventing the traditional financial system. And so how do we handle this sort of challenges is something that I feel that requires a lot of research. And what about in this space, I will say to me, or one of the most exciting and intriguing and audio with concerning type of technology. Okay, so governance and community on. So vowels are for those who don't know decentralized autonomous organization, governance system to encode it in a beautiful little can be changed. Okay, so that's, that's great for applications. We'll come back to further questions without you thinking about your questions. I'm going to go to the technologists first and the polymer before I come to you. So let's spent a lot of focus on technology in blockchains, public blockchains, private, private blockchains and layering. Layering. If you have to save today, what do you see as the biggest technological accomplishments so far, the one to take a second. And what do you think are the biggest challenges going forward? Thank you. Bye JOB. Be really know how to do proof-of-work blockchains the most efficient. And the plane had the highest security for levels possible than trade off between them. They thought there was a trade-off between security and performance. I designs hardly any. We also know very well how to build proof-of-stake major achievement in the last few years. We also know how to mix them fungible work and steak or different units. And space may be proof of x group of resource, but we understand how to mix them tangibly inner self normalizing way window, the units look very different. I think these are the major accomplishments just from an algorithmic and structural point of view of this has led to, I wouldn't say this has led, but this, these technologies have been used as a basis to start a whole bunch of clients, several thousands of them. And there's no reason in concert. Then they brought this fundamental conservation laws, one security, and that's another time. A topic about the major research challenge is how to have a wave that so many platforms, how to have them merge with each other, how to have them breed with each other or how to. And this is not just border security level, the right bridges, but also from an economics lack of mechanism design point of view. What's the right way to build ways in which if there is one of the chains God taken over by a centralized authority, but half the others can balance for it. And how to do this in a fungible self normalizing way is a major challenge and an interesting activity as well. So interoperability and operability and bridging, Yeah, Okay, great. For some people have mentioned economics. So I guess people know that in the Bitcoin blockchain design, which was the first one. And even though there's really no particularly new cryptography, there's no new computer science cryptography that big innovation was lending that incentive grains that were intended. Managerial. Economics has a very powerful role to play in this area. Marina. So you are talking about blockchain, but some people say this is the next internet. This is where the Internet is a lot about networks. So can you tell us what you see as some of the big opportunities and challenges and research from a network. Yeah, I really liked maybe your question in that it really expresses these tendency that we often have to go against them. Next fancy thing, which couldn't be my three, e.g. I'm not against this. I'm just more interested in trying to fix the Internet for the bloating or another side of the same coin is basically use blockchain as an excuse to fix the Internet. Which is something I'm very excited about it, but let me, let me explain more about why I think this is particularly challenging. So the problem is that although a lot of resources have been given to a lot of brainpower to improve in blockchain and having new obligations, having new protocols, and all of those, they have provable properties. They are so good in security and performance. But the problem is that they were making assumptions. They often make assumptions about the network that are not extremely correct or not true all the time in the Internet. Especially even for those that are built to work on top of the internet. So the problem here is that we often have such protocols that are really good and really secure, but the end up being vulnerable to attack, just exploit this fact that they will go and break the weakest link, right? This is my research, this is what my research is about trying to really do to find the interdependencies between the two layers and explain what attacks we can have and how we can protect a SaaS applications from Internet attackers. And I just wanted to add here that this is not like pure research and nothing that actually happens. In fact, two months ago, we had an attack against secrets, which is like a very well-known breeds. And what was very interesting to me is that the attacker actually exploited or combined vulnerabilities in the internet. So they did a B2B hides it. And the man has to also get a certificate from a certificate authority. And they of course combine it with some weight with doing some block team locked in specific work. But what was interesting was that the attacker really combine these two, these two domains and they had understanding of both domains. On the other hand, the defenders, they seem to be not in the same page. So even their initial reaction on what could have been the attack was not correct, right? This actually shows us that although the attackers have already started building really elegant attacks have combined domains. We're not there yet from the defenders perspective. Why I consider this particularly interesting research topic. But I should not sound like so pessimistic about it. So it's not that the network will always be an opponent to the blockchain. In fact, we actually in the networking community, we have many new advances that can help build or improve the performance potentially of sand blockchain systems. Or at least we can, we can work on the network to keep up with the assumptions at the blockchain community makes. This is also particularly talented but also fascinating work. So yeah, it's been, it's been a lot more aspect. I think that's the right thing. Maria said she's going to fix it. Okay. No, you've got the big one. The big one is blockchains can have the potential or reminding trust in public institutions. People say, Trust has eroded quite a bit in public institutions and corporate institutions. And as you mentioned, or maybe rethink aspects of politics and government. Transparency to accomplish rules executed like cold call is the contract's not relying on fallible and corrupt human behavior on so much. Worried about computers, consumer protection, about criminal activity in various kinds of things. What do you see societal implications on discrimination and disparity? So what do you see as some of the big opportunities, challenges, implications in areas of policy risks, society, small areas. As far as vigorous, good question. So thanks for the question. As I said, I've been reasonably educated myself on these issues and why things have encountered among thought leaders or what you might call two extremely polar positions. The first is what you might call the techno libertarian position that black cake and essentially replace almost any institution, including, including the state, by replacing many of its functions. The idea is like code is law. Contracts, of course, internally through reputation and exclusion, but not necessarily not requiring coercion. You can make collective decisions through more direct forms of democracy, and therefore it can completely eliminate hierarchical governance. The second view is that this is all correct, but as part of a neoliberal conspiracy replaced governance with market, with market mechanisms. But the one thing that both sides seemed to agree with is this. This can be done. It's just a question of whether it's a good thing or bad thing. I think I'm going to come down somewhere in the middle. Not surprisingly, since I said things were polar opinions. My guess is that the technology will prove very useful in many applications related to governance and politics, but probably won't replace many of the functions of the state or even institutions and economy. I think in several primarily serve to complement rather than supplements supplant contemporary institutions. So here's a few reasons for my skepticism about these extreme views. The first is there seems to be some debate about whether blockchain is a completely new form of organization or whether it's an institution that will complement existing, existing institutions. By either reducing. Costs and monitoring and verification, minimizing the risk of single point failure, et cetera. I mostly persuading the ladder. It seems to me and I'm happy to be challenged or since I don't know very much as a challenge. But a lot of the applications date look like existing forums that we recognize, but with some advantages, but with some different liabilities. Even Bitcoin looks a lot like a bank, looks a lot like a payments processor. Not a completely different economic or social organization. Secondly, and this is more specific, the question of trust and governance. Blockchain governance doesn't really seem to involve the elimination of elites, but rather a rotation, a rotation of elites. To simplify matters, I think from my view, the major source of loss of trust in government is the belief that government is run by a set of self-serving elites. So here let me be a little bit glib and the comparison. In a representative democracy, the elites are, those are good on TV and good at raising mind, okay, that's our concern about representative democracy. In a blockchain governments, the elites are going to be those people who are good at math and coding. And so there are different elites possibility that maybe they end up being the same, I don't know. But the newly would have to maintain the trust of the citizenry at higher levels than the old elite did. And that's, I think that's an open question whether or not that can be mechanisms to make sure that those people are good at math and coding can exploit their position. I have a couple of points of skepticism, of concern there. The first is that I think that one of the things that blockchain promises as new forms of deliberative democracy allows more participation, more participation online, et cetera. But as a political scientist, I think the real problems with deliberative democracy aren't really about aggregation of preferences, but there are about engaging Citizens and informing them. It's also got really who sets policymaking agendas. It's harder to imagine how those are done in a decentralized way. Second, and this is more of an economic question. The development of blockchain applications is going to require entrepreneurs and risk-taking early adapters. If these deliberative forms of democracy dissipate those rents to those early movers than the why were they develop them other than maybe funding from de-center. So I have real questions about whether, whether or not you can have pure democracy in the blockchain. And finally, let me just mention one other thing. And I've gone on too long. And that's why it's called the final mile problem. There's a lot of notion that a lot of contracts and so forth can be carried out through Dow's and online to the blockchain. And those skeptical, I just bought a house. There are some aspects of my housing contract that I think will go well in the blockchain. Elimination of title insurance would be wonderful, but it's not clear how code is going to inspect the chimney or make sure that if someone didn't disclose at the chimney was bad, that they made that they'd be punished. So it can't be a complete substitution for the coercion, coercion of the state and activity of state as the comp it has to complement we can get rid of title insurance. Well, we're still going we're still going to need courts and police and other coercive apparatus to go along with it. So I'm going to vary this sound skeptical, but I'm actually very excited about the opportunities here. Because I think ultimately trust in institutions is gonna be improved by increasing widely shared economic growth. And the efficiency of new blockchain applications can contribute to that. In many provisions of government services, quasi governmental services like title insurance. That improvement I think, will also go a long way. But let less certain about some of the more extreme arguments in favor of decentralization to the blockchain. These are really great things to think about. Just two observations. I'm hoping that our lumbar can also write the code to fix activities. I think to your question about the lease, I think it's going to be both because it was very preventable. People who they might be able to be all combined. Questions for our panel? Yes. Were you raised the question? And I think it's both. So let me follow up. In terms of economics. This in part by the title, missing people excited about decentralization. Mine invaded another set of institutions, which is a highly decentralized. So shuttling. Maybe within a year. People don't like Goldman Sachs tonight. Maybe get you mentioned, replace them with another set of where this might influence the demand. Doesn't change. I say USA, proof-of-stake actually create even more sense to follow up on notice coming in second year, right? So, so I just need you to be compensated for the invasion and so on. So, so he didn't really fully decentralized or not? You set up your response? Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't know how to how to solve the problem. I mean, I remember that in the early 2000s, Parker made the argument that the Internet wasn't gonna be an information superhighway because people needed to provide information to cost me to zero, no one provided. It turned out not to be completely right. So maybe there'll still be enough incentives and rents to create, even though the user community are able to dissipate those. But it's not clear to me how to work out. And then the arguments people make by mining pools. There aggregator. Coal. Miners can move easily from one pool. They see activity that they don't move. And second, all the powers in the end, in the hands of the people who run knows not to ultimately have a lot of different aspects to maintain that. So the ones that run the code in our capital, resources or access to these opportunities? I mean, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So I just wanted to add here. Okay. Centralization is something that is definitely bad, but there is an extra attribute to it. And that's if somebody cheats, will this be visible to others? And I think this is what log team allows us to go more towards this direction and centralization. Like, although I'll go back to the network because this is where this is what I do. But I just want to say that e.g. even your traffic you are traffic will go through only a couple of ISPs. In fact, those will have quite a few visibility on the app. So you're using on your everyday schedule, they know a lot. Then these dye hybrid ions that will even go close to the ads, I'm close to two wherever you are sets that you prefer them over a smaller data center in another country. So I think that there is like, we cannot avoid this centralization. But what's important is for me it's more to go towards a case where we can see whether the act in certain ways. So one of the responses to that is that some of the Bitcoin goes very hard to keep them very small. So you can run on our Raspberry Pi, even on your laptop. Networks, nodes, happy, very big in the case of things like so on all that data center. So there's the basket scale. That's the radius, but there's still ownership, which is people will have the same structure like at a certain point, you may have your computer, but remember if you talked to them, Here's you've had wires that are in the ground, undersea cables. Like we weren't really eliminating this aspect of control on how technology and so on. I'm just curious anyone I'm happy to respond to it. It becomes this sort of personal control. The gate controls, everything they can shut you down at anytime they wanted this exact number of instruments, me that there was a political movement, um, was somewhat the truckers were walking in certain parts of the kidney never moved to solve this by preventing access of everybody involved to their bank accounts. And so that's sort of power and the ability to shut down, cetera, doesn't seem to be addressed by the current discourse. So good question. So I let anyone who wants to take that question. The point is that somebody has the power to even like proper network connection and then William, right? So promote, yeah, I'm into something I think a lot about, or someone who works in the infrastructure and wireless, wireless is inherently decentralized. No one power can shut it off with Verizon, maybe a big carrier here, we're just across the border. It's not really there. So global carriers just from Texas, just humans are spread out too much and the tailwinds and there it used to be that you needed a lot of capital to set become a carrier. But the tailwinds are good. Playstations or becoming just a few hundred dollars. And spectrum has opened up with unlicensed spectrum, most of the network went to the Cloud. So with this kind of a natural breakup of the, what used to be a vertically integrated box of what the carrier brand is, tailwinds. And the building the right economics around it and the mechanism designs around such a decent place carrier or something I'm very interested in. I'm happy to talk. Actually, you're getting it. So one other thing people will say with that is that there are, they're all blockchains that can withstand the network partition, right? So take the whole thing down. They can still organize around that knows that. That's also a decent realization issue. And so that's one response. And the other is, if someone comes on your network, you can find other ways to connect to the network. So it's like the miners when they got shot down in China, they all, they all went somewhere else. Then it's very easy to pull this back. It's very good question. Yes. Yeah. I guess I'm curious as to ten years later, how are you guys condition blockchain to be integrated and average Americans line right there is that cases are hurting heart hardworking laborers. And what was the question that the standardized group but also asked me after this up as an assault on deception. And I don't know what that application will be in, whether it's ten years, but I know when it will happen. It's not so much a time, it'll be at a time when there's tremendous distrust, societal distrust in that particular area and currency sounds crazy than others and the king, by it could be a governance. It could be something as simple as maybe a gaming farm that was too much rent-seeking. Some work. Not in the same scale as currency and governance. Distill. It will be at a time when there's tremendous social distress flicked literally civil war. That's when it's not an accident that was launched in October 2008 at the very peak of the financial crisis. And dilute versus the timing will come and maybe not even requiring civil war, right? I clean my ten years from now, instead of using Venmo to pay for something to your friend, you will be using some blockchain based technology or like the example of buying a house, aspects of that process. Maybe on the blockchain, I don't think will be a completely all the blockchain. There is still a kind of connected to what you were saying about the Canadian example where steal somebody who holds power to physical means like if you have the military, you can go ahead and disconnect people's towers and even though it may be wireless, you can still have power. So either we'll continue to have that or maybe there will be like the emergence of kind of power, physical power attached to the blockchain. Maybe there'll be like a military unit linked to the blockchain or something like that. There's a lot of discussion of connecting the Internet of Things to the blockchain. And then if everyone's like, smart refrigerator is on the blockchain, and then that's where you're hardworking Americans who will be connected to it. There was actually an RFC you do that. Median transport. So, okay, So any question verse out of time, but we'll save for another few minutes if people want to stay and keep asking questions. So any further, any further question about America, the African American, America as one thing and many other countries and there's a lot of debasement of currency that can happen on a whim. And so people really, international remittances are one big application. But also people want to have access to the dollar and they can't sometimes, and that's at the whim of the banks and the government. So this is an area where people are using to own their own money, really fundamentally on their own one. And have it be stable against the basement. Who's just to just to add to that, I mean, most of my comments were premised on whether or not blockchain can replace the functions that are reasonably well functioning. There are many parcel lower states are not well-functioning and I would say that the supplier should take place there first. Okay. So let me see if people have to go because it's time for some things. So let's just give him a big hand.